Big growth area for me… thanks for the push.

Thanks for the comment, Benj. Glad these ideas resonated with you. I’m right there with you in seeing need for personal growth in this dimension.

James, I think that I understand your argument about being open minded in our discussions with people of other faiths, but I also think I disagree a bit…  

I’m not sure that uncertainty enters into the equation of “humility.”  Perhaps what you speak of as the negative is more “belligerence” rather than “certainty.”  

First of all, on the subject of raw humility, I’ve always said that humility (like maturity) is one of those things that if you think you got it,….. you don’t got it…     If someone thinks, or says they’re humble about something that’s usually a good sign of some blindness.  

Now on certainty:   I can know something with certainty, like I know that 2+2=4 and if a person says no, it’s 5, we can disagree and I know, based on everything I know about math, he’s wrong and I’m right.  It’s not a question of humility.  But my actions, attitudes, and words as we argue our case together would certainly bear out any degree of belligerence that was present in me, and that belligerence would prove the absence of humility. 

I have studied the Christian faith during my short walk in this life and have vacillated on many issues over the years (and have foolishly argued with belligerence in the past over some issues, God forgive me), but some issues and articles of my faith have grown and are now like an anchor stuck in a rock.  I’ve thoroughly enjoyed discussing the existence of God with atheists, it’s made me a stronger person.  Mainly because we both argued with an open mind to at least “hear” the other person’s viewpoint.  Because I’m more convinced now about issues of faith makes me not the less humble, but more convicted of truths.  An atheist can no more disprove the existence of God than I could ever prove His existence.  Even Pascal’s and other’s “proofs” of God are full of holes in their logic.  Let’s face it, that’s why we call this thing “faith.”  But to say that we’re only 95% sure of something in order to be truly humble doesn’t sit well with logic, I believe.

Here’s an example to chew on:  The apostle John said in the Bible “that these things were written so that you could KNOW you have eternal life.”

Great thoughts, Dave! Thank you for sharing. And let me start by saying, you very well might be right. I’ll dive a bit deeper into my thinking below and leave you to judge for yourself.

I used the same case of a mathematical question when developing these thoughts. I know 2+2 = 4. I am as close to 100% sure of that as I am of anything. And if someone comes to me and insists that 2+2 = 5, I am sure that he is wrong, and that I am right. I would argue that in that case there is no room for humility. Gentleness in correction, surely, but not humility. Humility is an embracing of our own short-comings. And in this case we haven’t fallen short. We are right, and sure of it.

The case of beliefs in supernatural matters of faith is very different. Walk from Islamic Pakistan to Hindu India and ask them what 2+2 is equal to. Now ask them to describe God. In the first case there is an objective knowledge that we can prove and share. In the second case there doesn’t seem to be the same sort of knowledge. I can’t know about God in the same way I can know what 2+2 equals. It is, as you said, a matter of faith, of belief.

The very entrance into the discussion of words like faith and belief nearly, I think, proves my point. We don’t say we believe or have faith that 2+2 = 4, we say we know it. But dig just an inch under the surface of our ‘knowledge’ about God and people will always turn to faith and belief as their groundwork for their knowledge.

Faith, at its core, is a decision to believe. A commitment to believe even though we are not entirely sure. As far as I know, that’s its definition. So to found knowledge on faith is essentially to say, “I know because I decided to know.” Or even more tellingly, “I know because I couldn’t be sure, so I decided to know.”
This doesn’t mean we can’t be confident in our beliefs. Indeed I believe this can make us more confident, because it will put behind us a cognitive dissonance that I think many share, an uneasiness at the idea of sure knowledge of unknowable things.
And simultaneously it will give us room to be honestly open to the beliefs of others. If I am certain of my beliefs, I must on some level be thinking, ‘He’s wrong, he’s wrong, I know he’s wrong,” every time someone shares beliefs that contradict mine. Whereas when I admit that my belief is faith rather than knowledge, I must reasonably say, ‘I believe he’s wrong, but I know he might be right.’ This is an entirely different foundation for conversation and, I believe, a better and more honest one.

Great conversation going on here! Both of you bring up really good points.  As I’m chewing on this, I do not think that humility equals uncertainty.  Jesus was 100% sure of God, and all things concerning the world, but he is our ultimate example of humility right? So humility is the building of a character trait that exudes the gentleness, you’re talking about.

I do agree with you James, that as people on this earth our beliefs do require faith, which is belief in something not entirely tangible or able to be defined.  I believe that God holds a truth greater than anything I can comprehend, or share, so I’m always asking for grace when it comes to the exchange of faith.  No matter how sure or unsure you are of something, listening to other people, understanding their hearts and perspectives, will teach us something no matter how much we differ from them.  

Thanks for offering some food for thought.